Speaking of Buell and the AMA/DMG Roadracing Series...
 

Things that make you go humm...

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2009/Jun/090602a.htm


Buell Now The Official Bike of DMG
by dean adams
Tuesday, June 02, 2009
DMG execs just announced this morning at a Buell media day that Buell is now the official safety bike of the DMG roadrace series. Presumably it will be replacing the safety car, but won't be in use at Elkhart.

One of the most controversial moves that DMG made after buying the AMA series from the AMA's Rob Dingmann was to make the 1100cc, 150 horepower Buell legal in Daytona Sport Bike & Supersport.

There was wide speculation at Miller last weekend that the Suzuki, Kawasaki and Honda factory and or factory-supported teams will be exiting the current AMA/DMG roadrace series after this season concludes.

ENDS

I guess thats one way to get Buell to ever win a race.... Make all the bikes in the race a Buell.

Fuck AMA, it's a piece of shit series and organization anyway.

Exactly! Its been downhill since they started giving Honda a displacement advantage to run their 2 cylinder bike!

Stupid racing series!

Yeah! Racing a 1000cc twin against 750cc I-4s is totally unacceptable! There's no reason anyone should ever need an advantage like that! I mean, it's not like they are racing a water-cooled 1125cc twin against a bunch of 600cc I-4s or anything!

Meh, an advantage is an advantage.

Just pissed that your reason to bash buell was also used by one of the big 4?

After all, they never added weight to the rc51 when it was dominating. Nope, everybody loved it when nickey was kicking ass on it.

The only difference is that buell makes shitty bikes that are beating the Japanese sewing machines. Now, you're all butt hurt about it.

Oh well :idk:

Just for the record..
When buell was running a 1400cc air cooled and was losing, did anybody care?

:lol:

I say let's let ducati bring the 1098 and add it to the mix. Buell would still have a cc advantage and no wins. :lol:

If the rules say they can, the privateers should be doing it and whomping on the buells. If nobody chooses to do it, who's fault is that?

Cause they say they can't, the ducati riders have to use the 848.

AMA is letting the 1098R (1198cc) run in the SBK class. It's not doing too bad considering on the smaller compact tracks you cant get all that power to the ground because the thing wants the wheelie out of every corner.

:stirpot: :lol

Yea but was the RC-51 the OFFICIAL bike of the AMA?:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Oh btw I fucking bitched and called every Nicky Hayden ball licking bastard out on it too! The year that NH won the AMA championship, Mlladin had like 2 or 3 DNFs, one from a tire failure I believe. Like I said the only way Nicki Hayden has ever won any championship is for the really talented guys to have a disastrous season and/or for him to have a huge advantage.

He won the Formula Extreme series on a 900 when the other teams were running 750s

He won Superbike with a 1000cc V-twin (WSBK spec bike with approx 5x Yosh Suzuki's budget btw) against 750cc inline 4s, the top man in the field (Mlladin) had a terrible year and he still barely won.

He won a MotoGp championship on the dominant bike when Rossi had one of his worst seasons ever and still would not have won if Rossi hadn't crashed in the last race.

Thats if one of them finishes :lol:

Tom

Yea but stock for stock, the Buell makes 146hp and 82 ft/lbs of torque and the average 600 makes what 105 hp and 45 ft/lbs of torque? That's a bit different than the difference between the GSXR1000 and the 1098.

troof. You wouldnt put a ninja 250 and a rgv250 in the same class. At the same time though dmg gave too much advantage

Are you kidding? I'm pretty sure Superstock 600's are closer to 140hp.

Agreed, I wasn't trying to justify the Buell being in the 600 class, I was trying to say that the Buell "SHOULD" be competitive in the SBK class along with the Duc and it certainly wouldn't be. 1100-1200 Vtwins should easily be capable of competing with 1-4 liter bikes.

Obviously AMA and HD are in bed together so the AMA is doing everything possible to promote Buell and to get them a championship.

Haters of America, all of you.

Austria iirc

hee hee

I said stock for stock. Not what you can get out of them. Besides, one of our guys just posted a 110hp R6 with a PCIII, a slip-on, modified header, etc... I'm not completely sure what you can change in Daytona Sport Bike but I doubt it would be enough to gain 35 fucking horses!:lol: Man that's 30% over stock! That would put my bike in the 200 hp category! BTW you get even less modifications allowed in the Superstock class which is why you haven't heard shit from Buell in that class:lol:

140 is reasonable on a modified 600. Look at the WSBK bikes. They are getting 215 out of a those 1000 I-4's.

look what it's doing in World SBK... Imagine the 1125 out there racing against Spies on his R1. Laugh...

I just want us to win fair and square! What good is it really for an "American" bike, who's engine and almost all of it's major chassis components are made in other countries, to win a championship with a 500+cc advantage over the competition? Exactly how proud of that are you going to be?

Real fucking proud buddy.

Yea but I'm not sure what all they can modify in THIS class. I guess if this was the 600 SUPERBIKE class, I could see 140hp...:idk:

Awwww.... now you are just fucking with me! I actually wished that Moto Cznk(sp) guy could have done something...

Believe it or not, I would love to see a truly American bike kick some ass in ANY race series.:pat: I don't see it happening unless Victory does something incredible in the next few years...

Because I'm sure every part on the Victory is made in the USA too, right.

Here are the rules for Daytona Sportsbike from last year.
3 lb's/hp based on dyno testing. and weight adjusted to level competition.

So does that mean the 1125R is supposed to be 100lbs more than the rest of the I-4's?

You can find the actual rules here

Now if you wanted to claim DMG was bending over for Rotax, I might listen as all of the Literbikes in Supersport and Daytona Sportsbike are made by rotax.

Waterboard them!

Oops.

Wrong thread.

My bad.

JC

Only if the 600's are making 100hp, but like I said I'm pretty sure they're closer to 140.

:lol

Yep that's MAXIMUM numbers and does that mean that they can do whatever they want to the bike to achieve those figures? I'd imagine not. It's funny but those numbers are almost exactly what the Buell comes with stock and it's why Suzuki can't run the GSXR750 or Ducati their newer V-Twins. They make too much power out of the box! Also, it doesn't address torque in your snippet there. I tell you what, you could strap on 25lbs to the GSXR750 and it would easily clean house in this series!

On the other hand, umm even with this advantage team Buell hasn't been doing too well here lately....:lol: If they don't win this championship under these conditions, they should pack up their tents and never darken the doors of AMA racing again!:lol:

I know this is going overboard but I swear that they started the rolling start in this class to benefit Buell. I bet a standing start is a bitch on one of those dogs!:lol:

Nah, you're limited to 1 hp/3lb but you certainly can make less. Stock the Buell makes approx 1 hp/3lb. A 600 makes about 1hp/4lb approximately.

Ok but I doubt the 1125R is running that class stock.

Damn near.

To their "credit" they would almost have to be to make the hp limit. If they so much as change the heat range in their spark plugs it could put them over!:lol:

To be honest, I actually believe that they have shot themselves in the foot here. They started out strong but now the other teams have gotten their bikes sorted out and have figured out how to make the aforementioned 140 ponies and keep their bikes running. I also think that at first the factories were kinda, "who cares" about this series but after getting spanked a couple of times, they have stepped to the plate with some more support. Hence, the successive wins by 600s in this class. I will seriously laugh my fucking ass off if the "Official Bike of DMG/AMA Racing" doesn't win this series! To me that would be a HUGE slap in the face to Eric Buell considering the rules. All you Buell guys might want to take a vacation from the site or put me on ignore if that happens!:lol:

I laugh everytime a 1100cc gets beat by a freak 600cc bike on that track. That's incredibly sad in the professional world. I wonder what the Euros think of the pathetic excuse for a series.

Butt hurt? Don't flatter yourself. Honestly, I think it's pathetic at best.

For the record, though, I've never been one to bash Buell. I really like their streetbikes, particularly the Xb12S.

I do, however, think that if Erik wants to go roadracing, he should pull up his big girl panties and race the 1125 where it belongs- Superbike. ;)

Agreed!

Add
-Race pipe (slip on)
-Tuner
-Chain drive
-Race brake pads
-Race tires
-Full fairings

The first races were done without the tuner as it wasn't working correctly yet.

Wsbk. bmw needs some company out back :lmao:

of what its become? oh yeah. not a whole lot to love about this place anymore

Troy Corser was looking a bit lonley in Utah...

i really feel bad for him considering his polar shift in positions from last year, still i tend to forget all that when i hear the announcers go on a ten plus minute apology campaign for the bike and team.

who am i kidding? Troy, if you are reading this these are for you buddy
:boobs:

















what? im not satan :lol:

Yea it's amazing what happens to some of these guys careers... I'm guessing Nicky Hayden will be riding the Buell in World Super Sport in a couple years...:lol:

You = ultimate American Hater.

It's funny how now that you guys have Buells in sportbike, we do too. OK, maybe not, since Colin Fraser runs the series here and is tied to DMG down there. However you slice it though, there's just something wrong with this picture (Steve Crevier, for you who are old enough to remember him racing down there):

http://www.morallyambiguous.net/mult...0-P5242390.JPG

How, in the molten offal pits of Hell, do you make a V-twin be as wide as a bus?!

He used to race the TLr with suzuki and I think he was on the ill fated harley team in ama superbike.

Tom

Make elephant ears out of the radiators?

BTW for the math impaired a 360 lb minimum weight and 3hp/# means they expect the minimum hp to be 120 or so.

Well okay but that still isn't 140 hp and exactly which of these bikes are 360 lbs stock? I admit that I can't completely figure out what class is what anymore....:idk:

Old Superbike is New Superbike with some old Superstock-like rules

Old Formula Extreme is New Daytona Sport Bike, right?

Old Superstock is gone

Old Supersport is New Superstock that only kids can play in, right?

I'm seriously not sure...

No, they expect the maximum hp to be 120 at 360 lbs.

Over 130 at the wheel of a 600 is a very big number.

140 = "reasonable" :lol

My V-4 Honda is significantly narrower than the racing Buells, though it has side mounted rads.

Your right, 120 max at 360.

And while I'm fine about the 130 being a lot for 600 streetbikes, I'd like to see some dyno numbers of the factory prepared 600's. It could be that's where the 120 came from (120x3=360), But I think I recall reading 130 numbers somewhere. :idk:

Point being DMG is not ganging up on the 600's and conspiring to make Buells win.

I'd still bet the twin's engine is narrower than your v4's (well at least at the cylinders).

Maybe they're designed as landing pads?

Actually, on the street versions they are designed to absorb impact in the event of a get off. And they are reasonably cheap to replace.

See I don't believe that DMG is "ganging up on the 600s" but I DO believe that the rules were specifically written to allow Buell to race that bike in this class. PERIOD.

What's wrong with that?

One of the things DMG did was to consolidate a number of classes together, trying to make the classes they kept revelevent. I also know they're trying to increase the attendence at the Daytona 200, and they did want to tap in to the Harley crowd that's there by giving them some reason to show up, but as long as they're being fair, we shouldn't be getting our panties all wound up.

I've said it before and I'll say it again- if DMG wanted to race the Buell to bring HD fans in, that's cool. All they had to do was put it where it belongs- in Superbike.

If I was Erik, and they approached me wanting to have my 1125cc bike race against a bunch of 600s, I'd honestly be insulted.

Tigger gets his panties wadded up over absolutely everything. In fact, he is a panty wad.

Not that it matters much but the 1098r is 1198 ccs

Considering where they seem to be finishing, he should consider it a compliment.

Haha! Yea I said that too! They're getting their asses kicked now. So basically a liter class Aprillia, an 1125cc Buell and an 849cc Ducati can't hang with the 600cc Jap bikes.:lol:

So a twin designed in 2000-2001, a 1125 that was designed as a street engine, and an italian 858 twin have a fight against 600 I4's have get revised every few years and are raced by the factory?

Would you like me to explain (again) why twins don't make as much power as I4's of the same size and never will?

Go right ahead, as long as you don't discount the usefulness of torque on corner exits.

Well then maybe they shouldn't race instead of expecting the sanctioning body to make special rules for them. Listen to you make excuses for them. This would be like breaking all the other runner's legs so cripples could be competitive in the Boston marathon. This is forcing coaches to take slow,fat kids that can't hit on the baseball team. This is forcing Toyota to put what is basically a Chevy motor in their cars to be allowed to compete in NASCAR because their engines were too light and made too much power. Everyone should get a chance to play... no they shouldn't.

Why not have Buell and everyone else actually produce a bike that is competitive. Just because your company is too fucking stupid or mired in tradition to make a modern motorcycle engine... but see here's where the V-Twin faithful lavish praise on their superior design and exceptional power delivery. You can't have it both ways. Either your bikes/engines suck and require concessions to be able to compete or they are outstanding examples of engineering and motorcycle excellence that should be able to compete on their own merit. You know when Honda had that 250cc advantage in AMA Superbike it was pathetic BUT at least it wasn't an almost DOUBLE displacement advantage! Yeesh! :lol:

It isn't the torque, it's the powerband, After taking rpm and torque at the rear wheel into account there shouldn't be any difference, 100 hp is 100 hp. Now maybe a street tuned twin will have a wider powerband that a peaky 600.
Hp is torque over a period of time, gearing will change torque, but not hp. So by the time you change the gearing of a 10,000 rpm twin to match a 15,000 I4, you lose 33% of your torque.

As to why a twin won't make the same hp is valve area and rpm. The bigger valves of a twin take up more space across the chamber, and the valve area doesn't increase as fast as displacement does, so you end up with less valve comparably, and the mass of the valve is a key limit to rpm and cam profile and spring life. Smaller valves have less mass and can rev higher. Hp is all about torque over time, higher rpm if you can maintain torque makes more hp.

F1 engines and now MotoGP engine show a similar development paths. More smaller cylinders that rev higher, with exotic methods to close the valves.

power pulses as well. More cylinders can do more work more often.

Hmmm... so more cylinders a "better" way to go then? So why reward those companies that refuse to see this "truth" with lopsided rules? Dude, I refuse to believe that you honestly think that it's okay for to go this far just to include Buell. The bike has an almost 50% hp advantage and a 30-40% torque advantage stock. Shit maybe Victory should develop an American single, with the right contacts DMG would let them run a 2000cc thumper in this class.:lol:

The pulses affect traction, but the amount of displacement per revolution doesn't change.

50% HP advantage? Are you high?

Stock 600 around 100hp

Stock Buell 146hp according to Buell

Strange how one estimate is conservative and at the wheel. And the other is peak claimed at the crank....

My 2000 r6 supposedly made 120 at the crank. My buddies 07 puts 116 to the wheel with a full system and a custom dyno tune..

The 1125 with tuning and race system might put 130-135 to the wheel.

Stock they see mid 120s at the wheel.

Curve on the Buells is as flat as a table top (which may be part of their problem).

Which is great tuning for a street engine.

If it's a Ducati.......but not a Buell. Lol. When is the last time a Buell had the top-end of a Duc or even an Aprilia.

Never. That was my point. Buell should be able to but they can't.

But if the I-4 is turning like 10K at the apex, he's sitting near his torque peak anyway.

and if he isint its a kick of the left foot away

I didn't say better, I said more hp, nowhere does that mean it's better. I didn't care my bike had about the same hp as a 600, I did care that it had more torque and it's at a lower rpm, and it delivered the power once per rpm instead of twice.

And like I said that torque advantage goes away once you equalize the max rpm.

"If", which means that absolute gearing is less of an issue for the V-2.

I'm guessing the first edition of the 1125 wasn't intended to go racing with, which would keep it from being competitive with Liter 4's and 1200 ducati's.

BTW Ducati solves one of the problems with twins with their desmotronic valve train. But they have to put expensive parts in the bottom end so it'll withstand 14,000 rpm. Which they don't really do for the street versions due to cost, and with the racing classes limiting engine to stock crankshafts they have a harder time getting the rpm (or life) out of the engine.

True, also same reason they sometimes have fewer gears.

It's not "strange", I got that number directly from Buell, if they are lying then okay. I didn't make the number up or anything. As far as the 600s go, I've seen many dyno runs from 600s...they make about 110-110hp stock.:idk:

Okay I check Motorcyclist and the 1125 they dyno'd made 129hp and 82 ft/lbs.

A 600RR made 106hp and 45 ft/lbs

There is that better? So your bike "only" makes 20 more horses and 35 more ft/lbs of torque stock... well what was I thinking? You're right in light of this new evidence I declare that it is perfectly acceptable for Buell to race this 1125cc bike against 600s. Heck, a 1098 only dyno's in at 139hp why not just strap an extra 20 lbs onto it and let it race in this class too?

I knew you'd come around.

In the Parts Canada series, the Buells are making 30-32 more lb-ft of torque than the 600s are (which make in the low 50s). No idea about horsepower (didn't get to see the dyno results).

Hmmm... I'm not as smart as you so maybe I don't understand. Are you saying that there comes a point when 80+ ft/lbs of torque is not "better" than 45 ft/lbs of torque?

It makes 20 more hp, once you account for gearing the torque isn't going to be much different between them.

And all you need is to get the AMA to okay your 1098, and you're all set. BTW I think the GSXR750 only makes 129hp......

You know Mark, I sure wish yo would have come to the rally. I bet you would have been a shitload of fun!!!

Yes. If the 45 is at twice the rpm of the 80 it's the equivalent of 90 ft/lbs...

Yea I know... I wonder why no one is racing it? Come on I bet the rules won't allow it or someone would. I'm calling Michael Jordan! Yo Mike how'd you like to race in a class that you can't lose in? Since the rules use a rider+bike power to weight set-up, I might have a chance even with my fat ass!:lol:

No you wouldn't :lol:

The bikes are for the most part equal (or there abouts).

If you were racing Mat and Ben on stock 1000's how many laps until you think they'd pass you? Me? Maybe 3......

And I think the 1098 probably doesn't pass the dyno test, as I think the 858 make ~130.

Hey I was talking about racing a 750 against the 1125s...:lol: I think that I could hang with Michael Barnes for a few laps anyway....:lol:

Well then DMG has a class made for you....

YES!!!

Hp is an equation. So, Hp=(Tq X Rpm)/5252

So, if you have 55 tq but 17000 rpm you have 178hp.

Now, 85tq and 11000rpm and you have 178hp.

So, in this case, lower tq or not. The engine is doing the same work..

Seriously I'm stupid... so if I have a '97 YZF1000 with 130hp and 80 ft/lbs or a 2008 GSXR 750 with 130hp and 65 ft/lbs of torque or a 2006 GSXR1000 with 160hp and 85 ft/lbs of torque and they all redline about the same, which is better? I mean most 1000s redline around 13,000 so why are they faster than 600s that redline at your 17,000? I seriously don't get it. Basically, a 600 that redlined at 20,000 will beat a 'busa at the dragstrip because of it's higher rpms? Huh?