Congresswoman shot in Arizona

[Trip]

why can't a nutbag go nutz on them....

[Rangerscott]

Originally Posted by Trip

Most people, even well trained gun owners, don't respond well to something like this. I have seen a study about what would happen if they had well trained gun owners with their guns in a classroom environment and all of them failed to stop the attacker. Most didn't even have time to draw. It usually happens faster than your brain can respond and a lot of people resort to flight as a first instinct.

Im talking about after the guy started shooting.

[goof2]

Originally Posted by Rangerscott

Im talking about after the guy started shooting.

I don't carry so I'm just giving my personal impressions. It seems to me most of those who do carry aren't going to be going to an open house for a Democratic candidate, even though Giffords was not the typical anti-gun Democrat. Those who do and were going would probably leave their weapon at home when going to talk to a politician. Those who are in the "I carry all the time, no matter what" crowd would probably avoid events where they might get hassled for carrying. All that said, that is why I suspect there probably weren't people carrying in attendance.

On the "after the guy started shooting" thing, even if he made it all the way through his first magazine (I've heard 30 rounds) the shooting may have been over seconds after it started. If the actual shooting lasted longer than 5-10 seconds I'd be surprised.

[Rangerscott]

Yall arent getting it. The guy didnt magically dissappear after shooting. He had to be taking up space in the universe. He had to get away. My poimt is im just surprised with a state with citizens fighting to have open carry and there was no one arm. Thats all.

[goof2]

Originally Posted by Rangerscott

Yall arent getting it. The guy didnt magically dissappear after shooting. He had to be taking up space in the universe. He had to get away. My poimt is im just surprised with a state with citizens fighting to have open carry and there was no one arm. Thats all.

What percentage of the population of Arizona do you think is carrying at any given time? Do you think that percentage drops at a Democratic political event?

[Trip]

Originally Posted by Rangerscott

Im talking about after the guy started shooting.

Originally Posted by Rangerscott

Yall arent getting it. The guy didnt magically dissappear after shooting. He had to be taking up space in the universe. He had to get away. My poimt is im just surprised with a state with citizens fighting to have open carry and there was no one arm. Thats all.

I was as well.

People don't react like they are badass internet warriors. They flee from the scene. Everyone talks a big game about being able to draw and kill someone, but that's not reality. The average gun owner will not draw and kill when something this happens, they duck and cover.

He didn't disappear, an unarmed citizen tackled his ass when he went to reload. As I clearly stated before, gun owners have been shown to not have the killer instinct. The choose flight over fight. Most of the time it takes someone trained to choose fight and draw to kill. Like an off duty or someone military trained. The average john smith with his carry license doesn't react well to pressure that a shooting brings on.

[Avatard]

The woman that tackled him was already wounded.

She's quite the fucking hero, actually.

[Particle Man]

Originally Posted by Trip

why can't a nutbag go nutz on them....

Because that would make too much freaking sense.

[Homeslice]

Here's a more detailed analysis of his beliefs. For those who are attempting to portray him as liberal, that's pretty doubtful. A lot of what's described below seems pretty teabaggish, especially the NWO conspiracy thing.


Shooting suspect's nihilism rose with isolation
By JUSTIN PRITCHARD, Associated Press Justin Pritchard, Associated Press Sun Jan 9, 7:09 pm ET
TUCSON, Ariz. – At an event roughly three years ago, Rep. Gabrielle Giffords took a question from Jared Loughner, the man accused of trying to assassinate her and killing six other people. According to two of his high school friends the question was essentially this: "What is government if words have no meaning?"

Loughner was angry about her response — she read the question and had nothing to say.

"He did not like government officials, how they spoke. Like they were just trying to cover up some conspiracy," one friend told The Associated Press on Sunday.

Both friends spoke on condition of anonymity, saying they wanted to avoid the publicity surrounding the case. To them, the question was classic Jared: confrontational, nonlinear and obsessed with how words create reality.

The friends' comments paint a picture bolstered by other former classmates and Loughner's own Internet postings: That of a social outcast with nihilistic, almost indecipherable beliefs steeped in mistrust and paranoia.

"If you call me a terrorist then the argument to call me a terrorist is Ad hominem," the 22-year-old wrote Dec. 15, part of a wide-ranging screed that was posted in video form and ended with this: "What's government if words don't have meaning?"

On Sunday, Loughner was charged with the shootings a day earlier at a political event outside a Tucson supermarket. Aside from the six killed, 14 people were wounded. Doctors were optimistic about Giffords' chances for survival.

Loughner had at least one other contact with Giffords. Investigators said they carried out a search warrant at Loughner's home and seized a letter addressed to him from Giffords' congressional stationery in which she thanked him for attending a "Congress on your Corner" event at a mall in Tucson in 2007 — the same kind of event where officials say Loughner opened fire Saturday.

Other evidence seized from his home included an envelope from a safe with messages such as "I planned ahead," "My assassination" and the name "Giffords" next to what appears to be Loughner's signature.

His high school friends said they fell out of touch with Loughner and last spoke to him around March, when one of them was going to set up some bottles in the desert for target practice and Loughner suggested he might come along. It was unusual — Loughner hadn't expressed an interest in guns before — and his increasingly confrontational behavior was pushing them apart. He would send nonsensical text messages, but also break off contact for weeks on end.

"We just started getting sketched out about him," the friend said. It was the first time he'd felt that way.

Around the same time, Loughner's behavior also began to worry officials at Pima Community College, where Loughner began attending classes in 2005, the school said in a release.

Between February and September, Loughner "had five contacts with PCC police for classroom and library disruptions," the statement said. He was suspended in September 2010 after college police discovered a YouTube video in which Loughner claimed the college was illegal according to the U.S. Constitution. He withdrew voluntarily the following month, and was told he could return only if he met certain conditions, including getting a mental health professional to agree that his presence on campus did not present a danger, the school said.

To his friends, it had been a gradual alienation.

The Loughner they met when he was a freshman at Mountain View High School may have been socially awkward, but he was generally happy and fun to be around. The crew smoked marijuana everyday, and when they weren't going to concerts or watching movies they talked about the meaning of life and dabbled in conspiracy theories.

Mistrust of government was his defining conviction, the friends said. He believed the government was behind 9/11, and worried that governments were maneuvering to create a unified monetary system ("a New World Order currency" one friend said) so that social elites and bureaucrats could control the rest of the world.

On his YouTube page, he listed among his favorite books "Animal Farm" and "Brave New World" — two novels about how authorities control the masses. Other books he listed in the wide-ranging list included "Mein Kampf," "The Communist Manifesto," "Peter Pan" and Aesop's Fables.

Over time, Loughner became increasingly engrossed in his own thoughts — what one of the friends described as a "nihilistic rut."

Loughner, an ardent atheist, began to characterize people as sheep whose free will was being sapped by the monotony of modern life.

"He didn't want people to wake up and do the same thing every day. He wanted more chaos, he wanted less regularity," one friend said.

The friend added that Loughner believed government was trying to get people to accept their meaningless lives so that they would stop dreaming — literally.

He told anyone who would listen that the world we see does not exist, that words have no meaning — and that the only way to derive meaning was during sleep.

Loughner began obsessing about a practice called lucid dreaming, in which people try to actively control their dreams. He kept a detailed journal about what he saw while asleep, and tried to get the friends involved.

Several people who knew Loughner at community college said he did not seem especially political, but was socially awkward. He laughed at the wrong things, made inappropriate comments. Most students sat away from him in class.

"He made a lot of the people really uncomfortable, especially the girls in the class," said Steven Cates, who attended an advanced poetry writing class with Loughner at Pima Community College last spring. Though he struck up a superficial friendship with Loughner, he said a group of other students went to the teacher to complain about Loughner at one point.

Another poetry student, Don Coorough, said Loughner read a "kind of a bland" poem about going to the gym in wild "poetry slam" style — "grabbing his crotch and jumping around the room."

When other students read their poems, meanwhile, Coorough said Loughner "would laugh at things that you wouldn't laugh at." After one woman read a poem about abortion, "he was turning all shades of red and laughing," and said, "Wow, she's just like a terrorist, she killed a baby," Coorough said.

"He appeared to be to me an emotional cripple or an emotional child," Coorough said. "He lacked compassion, he lacked understanding and he lacked an ability to connect."

Cates said Loughner "didn't have the social intelligence, but he definitely had the academic intelligence."

"He was very into the knowledge aspect of school. He was really into his philosophy classes and he was really into logic and English. And he would get frustrated by the dumbed-down words people used in class," Cates said.

Loughner expressed his interest in grammar and logic on the Internet as he made bizarre claims — such as that the Mars rover and the space shuttle missions were faked.

He frequently used "if-then" constructions in making nonsensical arguments. For instance: "If the living space is able to maintain the crews life at a temperature of -454F then the human body is alive in the NASA Space Shuttle. The human body isn't alive in the NASA Space Shuttle. Thus, the living space isn't able to maintain the crews life at a temperature of -454F."

Loughner also said in one video that government is "implying mind control and brainwash on the people by controlling grammar." He said described America's laws as "treasonous," said the "every human who's mentally capable is always able to be treasurer of their new currency," and that "if the property owners and government officials are no longer in ownership of their land and laws from a revolution then the revolutionary's from the revolution are in control of the land and laws."

Loughner described himself as a U.S. military recruit in the video, but the Army released a statement indicating Loughner was not accepted.

"He attempted to enlist in the Army but was rejected for service. In accordance with the Privacy Act, we will not discuss why he was rejected," it said.

Loughner tried to enlist because it was one way of getting out of the "T-Loc" life — kicking around as a Tucson local — one of the friends said.

In October 2007, Loughner was cited in Pima County for possession of drug paraphernalia, which was dismissed after he completed a diversion program, according to online records.

A year later he was charged with an unknown "local charge" in Marana near Tucson. That charge was also dismissed following the completion of a diversion program in March 2009, the Daily Star reported.

"He has kind of a troubled past, I can tell you that," Sheriff Clarence Dupnik said.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Homeslice

Here's a more detailed analysis of his beliefs. For those who are attempting to portray him as liberal, that's pretty doubtful. A lot of what's described below seems pretty teabaggish, especially the NWO conspiracy thing.


Shooting suspect's nihilism rose with isolation
By JUSTIN PRITCHARD, Associated Press Justin Pritchard, Associated Press Sun Jan 9, 7:09 pm ET
TUCSON, Ariz. – At an event roughly three years ago, Rep. Gabrielle Giffords took a question from Jared Loughner, the man accused of trying to assassinate her and killing six other people. According to two of his high school friends the question was essentially this: "What is government if words have no meaning?"

Loughner was angry about her response — she read the question and had nothing to say.

"He did not like government officials, how they spoke. Like they were just trying to cover up some conspiracy," one friend told The Associated Press on Sunday.

Both friends spoke on condition of anonymity, saying they wanted to avoid the publicity surrounding the case. To them, the question was classic Jared: confrontational, nonlinear and obsessed with how words create reality.

The friends' comments paint a picture bolstered by other former classmates and Loughner's own Internet postings: That of a social outcast with nihilistic, almost indecipherable beliefs steeped in mistrust and paranoia.

"If you call me a terrorist then the argument to call me a terrorist is Ad hominem," the 22-year-old wrote Dec. 15, part of a wide-ranging screed that was posted in video form and ended with this: "What's government if words don't have meaning?"

On Sunday, Loughner was charged with the shootings a day earlier at a political event outside a Tucson supermarket. Aside from the six killed, 14 people were wounded. Doctors were optimistic about Giffords' chances for survival.

Loughner had at least one other contact with Giffords. Investigators said they carried out a search warrant at Loughner's home and seized a letter addressed to him from Giffords' congressional stationery in which she thanked him for attending a "Congress on your Corner" event at a mall in Tucson in 2007 — the same kind of event where officials say Loughner opened fire Saturday.

Other evidence seized from his home included an envelope from a safe with messages such as "I planned ahead," "My assassination" and the name "Giffords" next to what appears to be Loughner's signature.

His high school friends said they fell out of touch with Loughner and last spoke to him around March, when one of them was going to set up some bottles in the desert for target practice and Loughner suggested he might come along. It was unusual — Loughner hadn't expressed an interest in guns before — and his increasingly confrontational behavior was pushing them apart. He would send nonsensical text messages, but also break off contact for weeks on end.

"We just started getting sketched out about him," the friend said. It was the first time he'd felt that way.

Around the same time, Loughner's behavior also began to worry officials at Pima Community College, where Loughner began attending classes in 2005, the school said in a release.

Between February and September, Loughner "had five contacts with PCC police for classroom and library disruptions," the statement said. He was suspended in September 2010 after college police discovered a YouTube video in which Loughner claimed the college was illegal according to the U.S. Constitution. He withdrew voluntarily the following month, and was told he could return only if he met certain conditions, including getting a mental health professional to agree that his presence on campus did not present a danger, the school said.

To his friends, it had been a gradual alienation.

The Loughner they met when he was a freshman at Mountain View High School may have been socially awkward, but he was generally happy and fun to be around. The crew smoked marijuana everyday, and when they weren't going to concerts or watching movies they talked about the meaning of life and dabbled in conspiracy theories.

Mistrust of government was his defining conviction, the friends said. He believed the government was behind 9/11, and worried that governments were maneuvering to create a unified monetary system ("a New World Order currency" one friend said) so that social elites and bureaucrats could control the rest of the world.

On his YouTube page, he listed among his favorite books "Animal Farm" and "Brave New World" — two novels about how authorities control the masses. Other books he listed in the wide-ranging list included "Mein Kampf," "The Communist Manifesto," "Peter Pan" and Aesop's Fables.

Over time, Loughner became increasingly engrossed in his own thoughts — what one of the friends described as a "nihilistic rut."

Loughner, an ardent atheist, began to characterize people as sheep whose free will was being sapped by the monotony of modern life.

"He didn't want people to wake up and do the same thing every day. He wanted more chaos, he wanted less regularity," one friend said.

The friend added that Loughner believed government was trying to get people to accept their meaningless lives so that they would stop dreaming — literally.

He told anyone who would listen that the world we see does not exist, that words have no meaning — and that the only way to derive meaning was during sleep.

Loughner began obsessing about a practice called lucid dreaming, in which people try to actively control their dreams. He kept a detailed journal about what he saw while asleep, and tried to get the friends involved.

Several people who knew Loughner at community college said he did not seem especially political, but was socially awkward. He laughed at the wrong things, made inappropriate comments. Most students sat away from him in class.

"He made a lot of the people really uncomfortable, especially the girls in the class," said Steven Cates, who attended an advanced poetry writing class with Loughner at Pima Community College last spring. Though he struck up a superficial friendship with Loughner, he said a group of other students went to the teacher to complain about Loughner at one point.

Another poetry student, Don Coorough, said Loughner read a "kind of a bland" poem about going to the gym in wild "poetry slam" style — "grabbing his crotch and jumping around the room."

When other students read their poems, meanwhile, Coorough said Loughner "would laugh at things that you wouldn't laugh at." After one woman read a poem about abortion, "he was turning all shades of red and laughing," and said, "Wow, she's just like a terrorist, she killed a baby," Coorough said.

"He appeared to be to me an emotional cripple or an emotional child," Coorough said. "He lacked compassion, he lacked understanding and he lacked an ability to connect."

Cates said Loughner "didn't have the social intelligence, but he definitely had the academic intelligence."

"He was very into the knowledge aspect of school. He was really into his philosophy classes and he was really into logic and English. And he would get frustrated by the dumbed-down words people used in class," Cates said.

Loughner expressed his interest in grammar and logic on the Internet as he made bizarre claims — such as that the Mars rover and the space shuttle missions were faked.

He frequently used "if-then" constructions in making nonsensical arguments. For instance: "If the living space is able to maintain the crews life at a temperature of -454F then the human body is alive in the NASA Space Shuttle. The human body isn't alive in the NASA Space Shuttle. Thus, the living space isn't able to maintain the crews life at a temperature of -454F."

Loughner also said in one video that government is "implying mind control and brainwash on the people by controlling grammar." He said described America's laws as "treasonous," said the "every human who's mentally capable is always able to be treasurer of their new currency," and that "if the property owners and government officials are no longer in ownership of their land and laws from a revolution then the revolutionary's from the revolution are in control of the land and laws."

Loughner described himself as a U.S. military recruit in the video, but the Army released a statement indicating Loughner was not accepted.

"He attempted to enlist in the Army but was rejected for service. In accordance with the Privacy Act, we will not discuss why he was rejected," it said.

Loughner tried to enlist because it was one way of getting out of the "T-Loc" life — kicking around as a Tucson local — one of the friends said.

In October 2007, Loughner was cited in Pima County for possession of drug paraphernalia, which was dismissed after he completed a diversion program, according to online records.

A year later he was charged with an unknown "local charge" in Marana near Tucson. That charge was also dismissed following the completion of a diversion program in March 2009, the Daily Star reported.

"He has kind of a troubled past, I can tell you that," Sheriff Clarence Dupnik said.

Mmm communist manifesto, mein kampf, 9-11 was an inside job, and faked space missions? What were you saying about tea parties again?