Trail braking?

[101lifts2]

I do on the track and on the street..but the street is more if you haulin ass around a sweeper and there is a line of cars as you crest the turn doing 1/3 your speed.

If you have sticky race soft tires, you would be amazed at how much force the front tire can take on the brakes in a turn.

[shmike]

Originally Posted by No Worries

As a scientist, why would I want to put braking and steering forces on only one tire by using only the front brake? I can split these two forces to two tires by using both brakes.

I hardly ever use trail braking going up a mountain. But coming downhill, I use it on almost every tight corner. I brake with both brakes before the turn, keeping them on into the apex of the turn, and accelerating out smartly. Smooth, quick, and safe.

Do you know what a switchback is? Some call it a hairpin turn. You turn 180 degrees, just like a U-turn. Lookout Mountain has at least six switchbacks. You have to brake from 50 to 15mph. And most of them are blind. You don't jam on the brakes like a racer. You squeeze both brakes smoothly before and half-way through the turn.

Typical scientist. You're only looking at the hypotheticals on paper without considering the real life experience.

Once the back tire is off or skimming the ground it offers little or no stopping force.

"Jam on the brakes like a racer."

Awesome, good explaination and pic. That is some serious front-end dive though. I have always had mine set up to leave 10-15mm of travel at full stop.

[Amber Lamps]

Originally Posted by shmike

Typical scientist. You're only looking at the hypotheticals on paper without considering the real life experience.

Once the back tire is off or skimming the ground it offers little or no stopping force.

"Jam on the brakes like a racer."

Awesome, good explaination and pic. That is some serious front-end dive though. I have always had mine set up to leave 10-15mm of travel at full stop.

I'm not as cool as you guys but if I set me bike up for 10mm, I would lose the front guaranteed!!! You must have the brake control of a GOD!

[No Worries]

Not only am I a scientist, but I'm a realist too. Compare the stopping distance of cruisers with sportbikes in the magazines. The cruisers weight 200-300 pounds more, have smaller rotors, and touring tires, but stop in the same distance. If they put sticky tires on the cruisers, they would stop quicker. Could it be that the cruiser has two wheels on the ground while stopping?

If I was on a modern sportbike braking so hard for a tight curve that my rear wheel was off the ground, I don't think I could successfully make the turn. Anyway, it doesn't take a modern sportbike to go quickly down Lookout Mountain, as some bicyclists go down quicker than many sportbikes.

Sooner or later, someone from TWF will make it out to Denver and will want to ride Lookout Mountain. I want them to know how to ride it quickly and safely.

[tached1000rr]

Originally Posted by No Worries

Not only am I a scientist, but I'm a realist too. Compare the stopping distance of cruisers with sportbikes in the magazines. The cruisers weight 200-300 pounds more, have smaller rotors, and touring tires, but stop in the same distance. If they put sticky tires on the cruisers, they would stop quicker. Could it be that the cruiser has two wheels on the ground while stopping?

If I was on a modern sportbike braking so hard for a tight curve that my rear wheel was off the ground, I don't think I could successfully make the turn. Anyway, it doesn't take a modern sportbike to go quickly down Lookout Mountain, as some bicyclists go down quicker than many sportbikes.

Sooner or later, someone from TWF will make it out to Denver and will want to ride Lookout Mountain. I want them to know how to ride it quickly and safely.

Well we have mountains here as well, and we also have those 180 degree turns you mentioned which can vary being negative cambered, 15 mph turns etc... I do think styles can vary based upon the type of bike being ridden and what era said bike is from. Like everything else not one style will fit all riders.

[the chi]

One day man, one day. I am going to meet you and hopefully ride with you...holding out for the day I get an ADV capable bike suitable for a trip up there!

[MikeSP1]

Originally Posted by No Worries

Not only am I a scientist, but I'm a realist too. Compare the stopping distance of cruisers with sportbikes in the magazines. The cruisers weight 200-300 pounds more, have smaller rotors, and touring tires, but stop in the same distance. If they put sticky tires on the cruisers, they would stop quicker. Could it be that the cruiser has two wheels on the ground while stopping?

If I was on a modern sportbike braking so hard for a tight curve that my rear wheel was off the ground, I don't think I could successfully make the turn. Anyway, it doesn't take a modern sportbike to go quickly down Lookout Mountain, as some bicyclists go down quicker than many sportbikes.

Sooner or later, someone from TWF will make it out to Denver and will want to ride Lookout Mountain. I want them to know how to ride it quickly and safely.

I will eventually take you up on that, AND I'll bring the VTX

[ericr]

Originally Posted by No Worries

Not only am I a scientist, but I'm a realist too. Compare the stopping distance of cruisers with sportbikes in the magazines. The cruisers weight 200-300 pounds more, have smaller rotors, and touring tires, but stop in the same distance. If they put sticky tires on the cruisers, they would stop quicker. Could it be that the cruiser has two wheels on the ground while stopping?

If I was on a modern sportbike braking so hard for a tight curve that my rear wheel was off the ground, I don't think I could successfully make the turn. Anyway, it doesn't take a modern sportbike to go quickly down Lookout Mountain, as some bicyclists go down quicker than many sportbikes.

Sooner or later, someone from TWF will make it out to Denver and will want to ride Lookout Mountain. I want them to know how to ride it quickly and safely.

You have to take into account the weight bias of sportbikes vrs cruisers though. Most cruisers have probably 60-70% of thier weight on the rear wheel at rest. Most modern sportbikes have 49% of thier weight on the rear at rest. When braking and the wieght transfers forward, the back tire contact on a sportbike is negligible. The cruiser still won't hit 50-50% even under braking in most cases so the rear brake helps a lot more on them.

[The Awesome]

Originally Posted by TIGGER

Mr Awesome , sir, we were taught to apply the rear brake first and then the front to avoid that problem anyway... I think. Try it and tell me if I'm right that the forward shift isn't as drastic. BTW I'm sure that you are right.

Was this taught in the context of racing or street riding? As I said before, I never use the rear brake, so I'm not a good person to ask about what context to apply it. In straight line braking in a performance riding context, the problem I see with that is you are creating a dead spot between closing the throttle and applying the front brake if you do it that way. Even the smallest window of time without using the front will ruin your chances at hitting a correct braking point. You would have to start braking sooner than desired if you wanted to apply the rear and then the front in sequence.

Another problem I have experienced when playing with the rear brake in straight line stopping is that when the rear becomes unweighted it seemed to be harder to control the bike and keep it stable without the rear wheel spinning free. I would assume this is a result of a spinning rear wheel creating a gyroscopic effect. I also noticed that in situations where I would apply a little more front than desired and actually lift the rear completely, it would tend to want to skid abruptly rather than slide smoothly when I set it back down. This would make it much harder to hit the turn in point that I wanted, because I would be fighting to settle the bike down deep into the corner. All of this is just personal observation and interpretation, so I could be completely off base with that. My experience with the rear brake is minimal, and the experiences I had could easily have been a result of riding technique or bike setup problems that I overlooked at the time.

Originally Posted by shmike

Awesome, good explaination and pic. That is some serious front-end dive though. I have always had mine set up to leave 10-15mm of travel at full stop.

I thought the same thing the first time I saw pictures of myself on the brakes. I asked my suspension guy about it and he told me that unused travel is wasted travel. Just make sure that for any given track you don't ever bottom out. If you do, changes need to be made to accommodate.

Originally Posted by No Worries

Not only am I a scientist, but I'm a realist too. Compare the stopping distance of cruisers with sportbikes in the magazines. The cruisers weight 200-300 pounds more, have smaller rotors, and touring tires, but stop in the same distance. If they put sticky tires on the cruisers, they would stop quicker. Could it be that the cruiser has two wheels on the ground while stopping?

I don't read bike magazines, but I have never ridden nor seen a cruiser that could stop anywhere near as quickly as a sportbike.

Originally Posted by No Worries

If I was on a modern sportbike braking so hard for a tight curve that my rear wheel was off the ground, I don't think I could successfully make the turn.

The faster you want to go, the more skill is required.

Originally Posted by No Worries

Sooner or later, someone from TWF will make it out to Denver and will want to ride Lookout Mountain. I want them to know how to ride it quickly and safely.

Unless Lookout Mountain has a bunch of Indiana Jones-esque booby traps, I'm sure it's no different than any other road. The same riding principles will always apply.

[Amber Lamps]

Originally Posted by The Awesome

Was this taught in the context of racing or street riding? As I said before, I never use the rear brake, so I'm not a good person to ask about what context to apply it. In straight line braking in a performance riding context, the problem I see with that is you are creating a dead spot between closing the throttle and applying the front brake if you do it that way. Even the smallest window of time without using the front will ruin your chances at hitting a correct braking point. You would have to start braking sooner than desired if you wanted to apply the rear and then the front in sequence.

Another problem I have experienced when playing with the rear brake in straight line stopping is that when the rear becomes unweighted it seemed to be harder to control the bike and keep it stable without the rear wheel spinning free. I would assume this is a result of a spinning rear wheel creating a gyroscopic effect. I also noticed that in situations where I would apply a little more front than desired and actually lift the rear completely, it would tend to want to skid abruptly rather than slide smoothly when I set it back down. This would make it much harder to hit the turn in point that I wanted, because I would be fighting to settle the bike down deep into the corner. All of this is just personal observation and interpretation, so I could be completely off base with that. My experience with the rear brake is minimal, and the experiences I had could easily have been a result of riding technique or bike setup problems that I overlooked at the time.



I thought the same thing the first time I saw pictures of myself on the brakes. I asked my suspension guy about it and he told me that unused travel is wasted travel. Just make sure that for any given track you don't ever bottom out. If you do, changes need to be made to accommodate.



I don't read bike magazines, but I have never ridden nor seen a cruiser that could stop anywhere near as quickly as a sportbike.



The faster you want to go, the more skill is required.



Unless Lookout Mountain has a bunch of Indiana Jones-esque booby traps, I'm sure it's no different than any other road. The same riding principles will always apply.

Street riding for sure! In fact this was the much touted MSF course I took in 1984... I had already "learned" to ride using cruisers and enduro bikes.

I'm sorry NW but when the racer guys, like Awesome and CEO, bust on you, I can't help but laugh my ass off!