Army ranger commits suicide to avoid 9th tour in Afghanistan

[derf]

Originally Posted by Tmall

8 tours in 6 years? How is that even allowed?

Ranger Regiments, when they say tours they mean one off specialty missions that they trained months for to general tours where they go over (those types of units) for 4-6 months. However these guys see real combat, just like in the movies, so yeh this guy has seen some shit.

I have nothing but heartfelt sympathy for this guy, he was let down at every step from what the article says. That whole world/lifestyle is about manly aggression, being the best warfighter out there. But there are some glaring inconsitencies that make me think what the guy was telling his family and friends vs what what was really going on, or he just didn't understand the army and for someone of his rank with his experience that is shit he should know.

First off read everything you sign. If he re-enlisted then he signed off on not getting what was promised. Here is a standard re-enlistment form, used across the board by everybody, read the bold line at the bottom of the page next to the words enlistee initial here (http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/i...rms/dd0004.pdf).

Secondly he had been given a minimum of 4 chances to get help. Granted it's based on self reporting, but his wife family and anyone else who was concerned could have asked for help.

Third, once you volunteer to join the regiment you are there for 36 months, longer than that you have to volunteer for longer time. I can also tell you that there is a ton of peer pressure to stay, mostly because they are looking for veteran ranger qualified leaders, but if he wanted to leave he could have.

What the real problem is, is the culture that is necessary in a unit like that, and most any direct combat unit. Be aggressive, fight through the pain, one more mile to run, keep on going, never quit. And you can't change that, its needed or people will die. He was let down at every level and it sucks.


As far as getting a memorial ceremony, thats not going to happen. Until earlier this month death by suicide was not eligible for a memorial unless it was questionable if it was a suicide. In the beginning of august that changed and now any death is eligible for a memorial ceremony.

[fatbuckRTO]

Originally Posted by derf

First off read everything you sign. If he re-enlisted then he signed off on not getting what was promised. Here is a standard re-enlistment form, used across the board by everybody, read the bold line at the bottom of the page next to the words enlistee initial here (http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/i...rms/dd0004.pdf).

As someone who was lied to on a second enlistment, and should have known better, I can attest that it's not always as black-and-white as an enlistment form. Until it comes time for the military to uphold its end...

In my case, I was told by two different sources at two different commands that the promise the Navy made me was valid even though it didn't show up on the enlistment papers, and in fact there was no paperwork I could get for it. In my case, it was a signing bonus.* In the case of some re-enlistees, it is a promise of a duty station or non-deployment status, etc. You can be as seasoned a veteran as they come, but if you're not an admin commando, and your chain-of-command is telling you one thing even though you can't seem to find it on your paperwork, it's not hard to get duped.

Given my own experiences and the experiences of so many soldiers I know, it's pretty clear to me that Hagemann's death isn't just the result of a "command failure." It was command misconduct.


*I didn't contact the recruiter or join for the bonus, so I didn't pursue the matter after I was told there was no paperwork to be had. It did affect my decision not to re-enlist, though. I don't like being lied to, even when I should know better.

[OneSickPsycho]

Originally Posted by KSGregman

We have Imperial Armies scattered all over the world...at an ENORMOUS cost to us....financially....and morally.

And no one knows....no one cares....stubbornly burying their heads in the sand against ALL evidence....A tiny fraction of the population....volunteers....bearing the burden of our imperial ambitions....while the vast majority of us have no fucking clue of the sacrifices being made....the true cost of our imperial ambitions....and to whom the spoils go....(just a hint, it's not "you and me"...the average every day American....it's the Haliburton's....and hundreds of companies just like them.)

How can we set about solving the Nation's problems when a) the vast majority of people see the symptoms of the problems EVERY FUCKING DAY and yet refuse to acknowledge their existence....and b) the deck is stacked sooooooooooooo far in favor from those who benefit from our post WW2 conversion from a Republic to an Empire?

www.ronpaul2012.com

[derf]

Originally Posted by fatbuckRTO

As someone who was lied to on a second enlistment, and should have known better, I can attest that it's not always as black-and-white as an enlistment form. Until it comes time for the military to uphold its end...

In my case, I was told by two different sources at two different commands that the promise the Navy made me was valid even though it didn't show up on the enlistment papers, and in fact there was no paperwork I could get for it. In my case, it was a signing bonus.* In the case of some re-enlistees, it is a promise of a duty station or non-deployment status, etc. You can be as seasoned a veteran as they come, but if you're not an admin commando, and your chain-of-command is telling you one thing even though you can't seem to find it on your paperwork, it's not hard to get duped.

Given my own experiences and the experiences of so many soldiers I know, it's pretty clear to me that Hagemann's death isn't just the result of a "command failure." It was command misconduct.


*I didn't contact the recruiter or join for the bonus, so I didn't pursue the matter after I was told there was no paperwork to be had. It did affect my decision not to re-enlist, though. I don't like being lied to, even when I should know better.

I totally understand where you are coming from, my first enlistment I was told I would get my bonus the day I got out of basic, which was completely untrue. But it said in black and white in big bold letters that it would be broken up into installments. They also expect you to follow every regulation, code of conduct, and article of UCMJ, but damned if I know anyone who has ever known and understood them all, its impossible.

But at the end of the day, any time someone signs a contract they should read and understand it first, especially if it says that anything else promised is not valid.

[fatbuckRTO]

Originally Posted by derf

But at the end of the day, any time someone signs a contract they should read and understand it first, especially if it says that anything else promised is not valid.

I agree with that. But I also think that, at the end of the day, as a commander you don't lie to your men. Especially if they've already performed for you in combat over 7 tours.

[derf]

I didn't get that the commander lied to him, sounded like the retention guy promised one thing and the commander couldn't keep that promise.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by derf

I didn't get that the commander lied to him, sounded like the retention guy promised one thing and the commander couldn't keep that promise.

yeah, sounds about right. what I dont get is why he didnt transfer to headquarters. everytime we had someone wig the fuck out they became a toc bitch in seconds

[Kaneman]

Its sad that anyone would defend any amount of dishonesty coming from men in charge of sending boys to war. This whole thing makes me glad I was able to get out of joining the military after I signed. Fuck. That. Shit.

[Tmall]

Originally Posted by Kaneman

Its sad that anyone would defend any amount of dishonesty coming from men in charge of sending boys to war. This whole thing makes me glad I was able to get out of joining the military after I signed. Fuck. That. Shit.

I don't think anybody is defending it. It's just that the men who made those promises had no authority to do so. So, there is no obligation for the promises to be honored. It's shitty, but that's how it is.

[Kaneman]

Originally Posted by Tmall

I don't think anybody is defending it. It's just that the men who made those promises had no authority to do so. So, there is no obligation for the promises to be honored. It's shitty, but that's how it is.

Not here, but on other comments. I should've specified...my bad!!